jen ([info]cruelbitch) wrote,
@ 2009-02-18 19:12:00
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Current mood:whatever.
Current music:they might be giants - why does the sun shine?

A schadenfreudal orgasm.
Delightful.

Author's Note: This lengthy diatribe was inspired by a [info]sf_drama post -- a forum I do not attend, nor do I desire becoming invested in -- which elicited a severe twitch of irritation within me. I, very reluctantly, said nothing. After all, why would I, somebody who devotes massive amounts of their time into Dare-I-Say-PC research, ever want to open the door to be verbally sullied; being accused of enabling "LGBT Piggybackers"? You may now, however, return to your assumed programming.

It is, first of all, important to underscore that I identify as lesbian but also identify as asexual. I don't interpret these concepts as being mutually exclusive. This has nothing to do with "celibacy", either; I quite simply believe the way our current world has defined sexuality to be pointless, restrictive, dooming. Absence of libido is a heavy contribution, but it is not the primary catalyst. Or perhaps it is, and I simply rationalize it through highbrow smokescreens. What exists within this nuanced identity of mine is a repulsion for conventional intimacy, and an equal repulsion for sexual expectations. Another component is an interlocking factor of depressing contradictions: I can cerebrally enjoy the idea of sex, but not viscerally.

On other occasions, it is entirely the opposite. I can intellectually discuss sexuality from a favorable point of view, discuss my previous endeavors with a modicum of appreciation, all while feeling as though a knife is being dug underneath my ribs with regards to how this connects to my actual body. On other days, I can detect a visceral sensation of desired lust, while intellectualizing sexuality with utter contempt from a political and sociological front. The idea of familial and procreative "biotruths", in addition, literally makes me recoil.

This does not mean, given another hypothetical world, that I wouldn't feel differently.

That being said, I can acknowledge the paradoxical quality this identity upholds, particularly given my attitudes toward construction of gender. I am, after all, resentful of the concept that orientation is strictly defined by the body, even though I inadvertently subscribe to that mentality myself. I have no reservations in confessing to this internal grappling and perplexity -- so in the meantime while I figure this shit out, gentle readers, it would be fairly appreciated if you would abstain from dropkicking my type into further self-abhorrence.

Which leads me into the greater problem. There exists, within liberal, often "sex-positive" circles, an ideology of permissibility and broadening of the spectrum of orientation tolerance ... provided the common ground resides in an ubiquitous enamor of sex. This exists within conservatism as well, but I find it more insufferable when this ranking occurs from my supposed comrades. Even from contemporary radicals, asexuality -- and it's subsequent political ideologies -- is equated with sex-negativity, a defiance from the Holy Trinity of What Is Desirable. And what could possibly be more worthy of attaining than the right to any variation of sex?

I mean, I get it. People, hopefully, understand that I get it. I acknowledge that disingenuous sycophants adore pontificating about their lamentable otherkin oppression, their Scottish-American flags, searching greedily to alleviate themselves from introspection about their own privilege in this world, whatever it may be. And many privileged people, potentially, harbor agendas: and to masquerade those agendas with flowery emotional appeals, tongues of silver, gold, or any other earthy gems of persuasion. Inviting asexuality into the LGBT cylinder could, admittedly, open the door for a dangerous genre of appropriation. But this has not stopped members of the queer community from, let's say, glossing over their undeniable white privilege, so I find it peculiar that the line is drawn here, in particular.

But alas, opponents of mine will propose aimless platitudes about "education", and then stagnate at this proposal. They agree, after all, that the world should be enlightened about asexuality and it's many cultural hindrances. While we certainly appreciate the spiritless asspat, I nonetheless speculated about how a marginalized group -- particularly one that is, arguably, quantitatively the lowest of minorities -- would attain enough of a foundation to promote this nebulous education without being attached to a mainstream movement; without harboring a multitude of progressive pillars entwining with them. This, I believe, is the largest issue.

Even though asexuality is, of course, antithetical to sex, and their marginalization typically doesn't scrape the blistered surface-skin as it does to the LGBT community, they are nonetheless mandated to exist within a sex-normative world where everything -- EVERYTHING -- is eroticized. The entrenchment of sexualization exists within their consumption, within the reality that most economic value being bolstered by the existence of sex; in their interactions, their education, their media; in the prospect of living bodies and inanimate objects being mired within carnality ... and the subsequent reality that this is inescapable. To deny that there exist parallels within generalized sex-normativity and heteronormativity is demonstrative of an appalling level of myopia. That homosexuality, transexuality, and asexuality are all pathologised within the medical community, the psychological community, and within collective society ... well, suffice to say, seeing this component being ranked or denied causes my blood to run cold.

I can say with rigid certainty that both elements of my identity have caused me massive grief at the hands of other's ignorance. But more specifically, from the amorphous collective; from the people who I don't see.

Similarly to the LGBT community, asexuals are bludgeoned with the naturalistic fallacy on a near-constant basis. I recall an instance from when I was sixteen years old that demonstrates this minimization perfectly: When discussing my perspective on the relative unappealing nature of sex, a trained psychologist was unhesitant at losing his shit on me, invoking a dozen frustrated appeals to nature. Needless to say, it stirred quite a bit of illuminating deja vu.

I had an asexual male friend -- among many -- who faced constant, scathingly vicious allegations of his gayness, with rigid insistence that he was broken inside. That, after all, was the only way people could conceptualize him: a member within the universe that must be engaging within the ubiquitous need of pair-bonding, which entails sexual sacrifices and sexual obligations. What was implicit was that he should at least be gay; it was, after all, better to be sexually-deviant rather than exercising unspeakable deviance by abstaining from sex in totality. When he methodically detailed how he was "opting-into" what felt like terrifying molestation while fervently attempting to cure himself, this resonated with me strongly. I recall a thousand lurid stories within this vein: The homosexuals who had felt "raped" while curatively dappling with the opposite sex, as systematically dictated; the phenomenon of transpeople feeling "invaded" when sex involved bodies, their bodies, that did not belong to them internally.

Of course, these mentionings of rape are not confined to the abstract. Upon watching a documentary about lesbian women being brutalized in Africa to "show them their straightness", and acknowledging the existence of this within the rest of the world, I recall a plethora of anecdotes about how this can, and does, relate additionally to asexuality. If I touch you the proper way, the light will hit your thighs and fill you with hunger. Yes?

Even what is antithetical to sex must, after all, be rooted in sex: You've simply had inadequate partners. You must have endured grotesque child abuse. This was, additionally, used as a vivisecting tool to rationalize my lesbianism: It must be related to inadequate or abusive men. You must be pathologised. You must be compartmentalized. Figure yourself out; rather, make it more simplistic so we can figure you out.

The fact that the weighing of oppression's collateral damage was entirely being centered around marriage was absurd to me, and is demonstrative of where people's priorities lie. The vast majority of the "PC" movement, particularly of the internet variety, works on changing social conceptions -- not simply altering legalities. As if the LGBT community would crumble into resplendence if said legalities were attained. As if laws even change minds. And nevermind Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder ... and indeed, nevermind that it has been seared into psychological and scientific terminology, and is not purely something that has been flippantly mentioned in social circles in a so-called passive manner. If who you are is unanimously considered a disease, I'm loathe to deny any systematic component is involved.

"That's fine, Jen, but I never asserted that these issues didn't exist." Thank you, cherubs, for your brilliant ripostes.

Besides, I would be fascinated to read Asexuality Theory in copious amounts, from a group whose authors don't simply contain doughy college philosophers who play Day of Defeat. I'll even ask nicely.



(47 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]chessdev
2009-02-19 01:39 am UTC (link)
Several questions if I may:

And this question is PURE IGNORANCE on my part, so please forgive me.
1. Does asexual mean equally attracted to both sexes? Or does it mean equally apathetic to both sexes?

2. Does asexual outlooks affect your ability to work?
How?

3. Why do you feel groups that campaign on acceptance, seem to likewise find others to not accept? Is that a failure in the sexual identity definitions used, or is it just pure hypocrisy?


I'm asking questions out of pure ignorance and curiousity - I'm not levelling any judgements. Still, if you dont want to answer them, I completely understand.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 02:23 am UTC (link)
1. Asexuality, to simplify, entails an utter indifference to sexuality in general -- not necessarily people. What further complicates matters is that a person can still identify as heterosexual or queer and still retain elements of asexuality; they challenge the notion that lust and love can't be separated in a meaningful way. Some might ask how, particularly within the framework of wanting to dismantle gender (or the sex differences as a whole), why orientation matters to begin with, which is a concept I struggle with; it's fairly difficult to disentangle yourself from cultural trappings.

It also doesn't mean you're celibate, as I mentioned in my post, nor does it mean you're 100% impervious to arousal. For some people, it's solely rooted in an extremely low libido, and they don't consider themselves "disordered" -- for others, it's rooted in the political. It's Complicated (TM), similarly to queer theory.

2. Yes and no. In the majority of cases, it assisted me with a useful ability to desensitize -- which, as I've mentioned to you in the past, used to carry over into my personal sexual interactions, which sullied and disconnected the process (it turned sexuality into a "performance"). OTOH, it intensified the disgust I had for sex; simplistic conversations and lapdances would be tremendously cutting to me for different reasons. At first I believed that sex work had spawned this identity within me, but in retrospect, this attitude pre-dated my adulthood.

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[info]veriteblesse
2009-02-19 06:58 am UTC (link)
I'd love to read more about politically-based asexuality, if you know of any good sources.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 03:38 pm UTC (link)
I'll try to dredge up some actual linkable resources, when I get the time. Most of my internet reading is "note-taking" accumulated into hundreds of text files, but I promise to search for something more specific.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 11:34 am UTC (link)
Lust and love are neurologically separated, anyway, so I don't understand how people do not get that asexual people can have incredibly strong romantic love for someone, but not want to have sex with them. Idk idk, I think of romantic friendships between women and Platonic love in Ancient Greece and how asexual romantic love between two people of the same gender was basically the ideal at many points in time, and how suddenly when that's a rosy ideal, there are a lot more people inclined toward bisexuality.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 01:52 pm UTC (link)
I'd be pretty interested if you could expand, at some point, on the contemporary construction of Queerness. I remember antifem touching on it briefly a while back -- how homoeroticism existed in history and within nature, but not "homosexuality" As We Presently Know It.

That being said ... when discussions of asexuality emerge, my mind often defaults into platonic Grecian ideologies. So indeed, pretty much.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 02:32 am UTC (link)
Oh, sorry, I skipped over #3. Just attempting to cover all the bases, here.

3. I'm hesitant to be presumptuous here, but the reasons my opponents outlined were 1) That asexuals weren't meaningfully discriminated against in a legal sense; they only faced prejudice on an individual level, and 2) it would invoke a slippery slope into welcoming "otherkin" types into the tent, disenfranchising and poisoning community discourse and activism. Where my contention arises is that not only do asexuals face prejudice in both the individual and collective sense, but hatred and discomfort with them is encoded into systematic arenas: media, the psychological field, science & medicine, ad nauseam. While they're not stopped from, let's say, joining the military or donating blood, I'm loathe to restrict notions of discrimination simply because it's not precisely paralleled with the LGBT community, even though it maintains heavy parallels in other regards.

Additionally, it leaves people, such as myself, in a rather bizarre, polarized predicament -- and I get rather tired of "But are you facing discrimination against your asexuality, or are you facing homophobia?" I believe I'm well-versed enough within feminist and queer theory to be able to differentiate between the two, thanks.

For the record, the degree of hypocrisy involved was, AFAIK, exerted primarily within the [info]sf_drama post. For example, there were a handful of heterosexuals snarking on bi/asexuals for dictating what goes on in the LGBT arena, which was bothersome to me. The comparison to furries was also rather odd, considering I remember lovecrafty being (rightfully) dogpiled for comparing them to transpeople. I'm sort of disillusioned by the whole topic, to be honest.

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[info]chessdev
2009-02-19 02:42 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the answer.

I dont really have anything to add but I appreciate the response.
Thanks

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 02:45 am UTC (link)
No problem.

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[info]hungrymoon
2009-02-19 03:35 am UTC (link)


I used to hold the "ha-ha Asexuals" view, then I read more about it and realized I was being a privileged fuckhead. Now I cringe when I see posts that are all "asexuals lol".

Sorry I used to be a moron, bb. :*

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 04:55 am UTC (link)
Well, I'm willing to concede that it's "slippery", but I'd be hard-pressed to find more rocksteady reasons why their presence would seriously minimize the LGBT community.

You're forgiven, duh. If it helps even things out, I used to be fairly biphobic because of bizarre deception in high school concerning female partners. And MTV. Sorry 'bout that.

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[info]nyghtinggail
2009-02-19 04:25 am UTC (link)
I always love the things you have to say, that said- sometimes it is just nice to make love.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 04:58 am UTC (link)
Right. Well, my concerns aren't skewering of individual sexual acts, per se. This ideology more or less encompasses the collective; the sum of all it's parts. It's an issue easily muddied.

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[info]lost_kite
2009-02-19 04:26 am UTC (link)
Interesting thing is that this narrative can be generalized in a lot of ways to conditions that generally aren't recognized/appreciated. It's a powerful one nonetheless.

Anyways, I envy asexuals. I have no love of the fact that I'm vulnerable to being sidetracked in life by the desire for... rutting. Nothing is more intellectually repulsive to me than the thought that people would basically see this as a worthy goal in life. Ask me why I'm indifferent to the happiness of others, and I'd point to all the stupid things which make people happy... sex being one of the main examples.

Obviously my inclination towards asexuality is not intrinsic, but I can't help but try to cultivate it.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 05:08 am UTC (link)
So is your particular brand of asexual-favoring adequately described as "viscerally enjoying sex, but not cerebrally"? Or something else entirely?

I speculated how my narrative could be generalized, and somewhat deliberately applied a primer for versatility ... which I assume is precisely my opposition's problem. It opening the door for slippery-sloping, and all that delight.

As to the rest: I basically "get" you there. Disturbing how embedded carnality is into everything, how people subsequently prioritize it, and how it can make or break otherwise workable situations.

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(Anonymous)
2009-10-13 06:23 am UTC (link)
I've tried to remember whether I was actually happier alone or if I retreated from frustration.

It is disturbing, "how embedded carnality is into everything," but in my case I think it's because my choices are:
- constant reminders that I'm unwanted, or
- being a hermit, against my will

I don't have the luxury of saying things like "the suicidal are already dead." If others refused interaction with you except as Employee & Customer, what would you do?

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-10-15 11:15 am UTC (link)
This is probably rhetorical, but it's a question I can't meaningfully answer without empty presumptions. There is evidently a difference in our personal disgust for carnality (and interpersonal relationships) in terms of its roots, even if the surface sentiment is paralleled. Even the powerless quality behind your statement comes from a different place than the powerlessness of mine, so it's admittedly difficult to confront your hypothetical.

I can only state that it has always been extremely important for me to be able to walk away from things, including people and baser inclinations. And that, in my own circumstances, it's remarkably easy for me to turn to stone (and to prefer this) if my rigid principles and ideals are not honored. Perhaps, truth be told, this could be regarded as a luxury in its own right, although I would consider the winding paths behind this outlook to be far from luxurious. Grotesque, even.

But as for the last part, all complex pontifications aside ... Are you okay?

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yes
(Anonymous)
2009-10-18 06:41 am UTC (link)
I've learned: your self-respect isn't a luxury; you've earned it. I need to earn my own. This should have been obvious to me.

Thanks for your reply, and for your perspective.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 10:35 am UTC (link)
During the entire sf_drama wank, I had a pretty kneejerk reaction to a bunch of people on the internet comparing their asexual oppression to the ones homosexuals face. There is a scope, a magnitude of (often ignored) violence and systematic oppression that homosexuals face in which I feel it is not comparable.

Then, as I discussed with you, I did sit back and think of the psychiatric and medical obsession with low libido, and the need to 'fix' many people who don't feel like anything is really that wrong with them until others make them feel alienated and broken. The way people strongly try to correlate this ~deviant~ (lack of ) sexuality to abuse, hormone imbalances, or what have you is very much the same attitude toward homosexuality. In the end, whether it's seen as biological or psychological, it is seen as a deviation from the norm, the norm which is heterosexuality, and a healthy need to engage in heterosexual sex.

We also talked about the stupid notion that we are somehow repressed as a society, and I wish that people would understand that sexuality has no 'natural' state. It's directed and shaped and packaged and sold for everyone in all kinds of ways. Who knows what sexuality would look like without any societal influence, if it were to just ~exist naturally~.

Asexual men are seen as less of men, while asexual women (or just people with low libidos) are seen as damaged, someone that just needs peen, as ALWAYS (that's a cure to every woman's problems), to 'fix' her.

If who you are is unanimously considered a disease, I'm loathe to deny any systematic component is involved.

I love this. And my next comment will be purely anecdotal because I am tired and incoherent and cannot sound very intelligent yet, but I can at least talk about myself.

In the end tl;dr, upon further reflection, I do understand what these asexuals were trying to say.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 12:56 pm UTC (link)
I'm going to reply to your series of comments in a rather disjointed fashion. My actual first response to you is here.
"We also talked about the stupid notion that we are somehow repressed as a society, and I wish that people would understand that sexuality has no 'natural' state. It's directed and shaped and packaged and sold for everyone in all kinds of ways. Who knows what sexuality would look like without any societal influence, if it were to just ~exist naturally~."
What's interesting is that I can interpret this both ways. Upon watching a documentary about The History of Sex (which was, essentially: "Here's a List of All the Impossibly Destructive Abuses We've Inflicted Upon The Female Species and Masqueraded it as the Natural Evolution of Lust; How Marquis de Sade Was Sinisterly Awesome to Sexologists"), I noticed that beneath the pile of bizarre devices, contraptions, mandates, and clinical phrasing of the carnal actions, that we've, presently, really just given historical practices a different name. We've also only minutely tweaked the motions. What seems evident is that it's unanimously accepted that the most appalling levels of power exchanges were rooted in shame and repulsion for sexuality -- and, within contemporary society, even sex-positivity thrives on the notion of making dirtyness good. What's implicit here, however, is that "revolutionary" types into, let's say, kink, still embrace the notion of "consensual debasement", which requires a deeply embedded attitude that you believe that your particular sexuality is, in fact, a debasing thing. The only difference is that you unabashedly adore this self-described depravity and trangression -- in fact, the taboo is often the core of it's appeal. Ergo, in that regard, I can definitely understand how people believe we are a sexually repressive society -- but I agree with them for the "wrong" reasons.

On the other (more obvious) hand, as we discussed before, it's entirely laughable to believe Western society is a de-sexed police state, unfairly trampled by the oppressive regimes of the "Aw shucks" conservatives. Beneath the pile of attempted impositions of prostitution censorship, restrictions towards the LGBT community, and other debacles that are interpreted to be conjoined with deviant sex ... Well, suffice to say, I don't believe these dilemmas within the heteronormative collective are rooted in hatred of sex, but rather rooted in associated contempt with the female body, which has become the centerpiece of expression of What Is Sex. After all, it is often channeled with her as the visual or abstract medium -- and she is the passive receiver of anonymous lust while paradoxically being the cause of other's activeness.

But alas, I suppose discussing heteronormativity is irrelevant to my own topic. Then again, maybe it isn't.

Edited at 2009-02-19 12:58 pm UTC

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 01:24 pm UTC (link)
"... What's interesting is that I can interpret this both ways. Upon watching a documentary about The History of Sex (which was, essentially: "Here's a List of All the Impossibly Destructive Abuses We've Inflicted Upon The Female Species and Masqueraded it as the Natural Evolution of Lust; How Marquis de Sade Was Sinisterly Awesome to Sexologists"), I noticed that beneath the pile of bizarre devices, contraptions, mandates, and clinical phrasing of the carnal actions, that we've, presently, really just given historical practices a different name.

...I don't believe these dilemmas within the heteronormative collective are rooted in hatred of sex, but rather rooted in associated contempt with the female body"


Agreed, 100%. The sex men have (unless it is homosexual sex, which is threatening to the order of trying to control women through sex, and shows the innate entwining of power and sex that seems to come with masculinity) had throughout history has gone through completely different 'regulations' than women.

I do not know if I've discussed this with you, but people as a society, especially Western society, seem to view the human experience as One Big Brain. They basically think that what has happened in the past is in the past, it is unevolved and we have learned from it naturally. What, exactly, is 'we'? Has every person really just learned, through collective human experience, that it's unfavorable to do these things to women, or to another 'race', or to those of deviant sexuality, etc.? It's as if they think that humanity shares this giant brain, and it learns from every experience it has had in the past. Yet, we somehow have the same issues consistently popping up ubiquitously all over the world, with slightly different names to the issues and slightly different definitions, and perhaps some tweaking here or there.

This is practically the counterpart to the phenomena of people looking at history with a rosy, natural, essentialist view and any bad outlook on it is 'revisionist and PC', and talking about 'upholding traditions' for some bullshit reason or another, as if Humanity is to be Parented and it's constantly going through a rebellious adolescent phase and must return to its pure, childhood roots.

When looking at the history of sex, and looking at how the sexual revolution evolved within the frameworks of a patriarchal and unequal society and within the goal of making the Female Body more 'free', more sexual, is the way to achieve real liberation ... it's just obvious that the same things seem to occur constantly ( despite what people decry in our 'femininized society' ), and they may take different shapes or forms but are never truly knocked down, never truly defeated. Legalities are switched, which is good and all. It's good that it's illegal to kill a woman for this and that, it's good that you can't toss someone in jail for being gay in some parts of the world, it's good that integration exists. A lot of change doesn't come from it because people are afraid of radicals, and there is a great tool [the media] that can be used to silence them or make people afraid to be associated with them.

Most people deemed 'radicals' really don't have that many crazy beliefs, and should not be pitted with people who condemn those of different lifestyle to death, or even crueler, eternal suffering after you've died.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 01:24 pm UTC (link)
Women's bodies seem loathed. A woman's agency seems loathed. As we've discussed, this phenomena of women 'hating other women' is actually something that works to boost their 'tough' status amongst men and women alike. Male agency is invisible in a way because it seems so natural, so default, so THERE. Which is why the woman's choice is always debated. Her 'gatekeeper' choices on sexuality, the way she dresses, her reproductive choices, her choice to be a Mother or not, her choice in how she reacts to the invisible males that invite her for drinks. It's like that story on the Iraqi woman who arranged the rape of 80+ Iraqi women and then their suicide bombings. Sure, what she did was disgusting and heinous and I officially revoke her Female Membership Card, but what of all of the invisible men that raped those women? Yep, they are just that, invisible. No need to talk about what they did.


Sex has been dangerous to women for most of our history. Not only because of what it does to our status and how people redefine and speculate about us from it, but childrearing has been dangerous for a long time. Are women designed to maximize their sexual encounters like men are? What does biology play in this? Do we define women's sexuality separate from men's sexuality, BY men's sexuality (which is what we currently do), or within it and as the same?


When it comes to 'revolutionary types' and kinksters, well, as I told you, nothing is reflexively off-limits for me to debate. Some people don't like that I use strong words of condemnation or anger towards men or racial/class privilege or heterosexism (I'm seeing more and more feminists that have this; yet again, feeling disillusioned). It's not something I ever want to change or intend on changing. I don't mind that some of my opinions alienate people. I don't care about alienating some people. Fact of the matter is, I'm not concerned with looking for allies, I'm just concerned with listening to people that may have much brighter insight than my own to offer me.

I suppose that I'm an Incompatibilist in some ways. While I understand there are certain freedoms that no doubt exist (the freedom to act how you want, the freedom to CHOOSE what you want, despite how much I doubt your autonomy in those choices), and while it is my unbending principle to uphold those freedoms legally (these things are not for debate; their nature may be, and I will engage in discourse and theory about 'choice' feminism, but whether or not some freedoms should even exist isn't even up to question for me), I still feel that our freedoms are shallow. I try to think about how people came to be how they are, what circumstances they have grown into, the water these fish live in, and I see that people have not controlled how they came to be, and just 'go with the flow' and 'do what they feel like', which is usually directed from outside forces anyhow. So I end up thinking, how much of their ~special own person~ are they?

This all ties in to the asexuality and romance thing, to me, because I just don't feel the current romantic-sexual construct of love makes sense. I don't feel it's natural in any way, and I guess I personally don't feel I'll ever find happiness with the model that's been set up and the variations of it I've been presented by many ~alternative~ people.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 01:41 pm UTC (link)
And now I keep coming back to what you said about the female body, and how the heteronormative collective is not rooted in the hatred of sex. You said women are the centerpiece expression of What Is Sex. The words ring true for me, while men are the centerpiece expression for What Is Power (or things associated with men, since females can have power by being associated with them - war, violence, sex).

Our culture equates the female body with sex itself. The female body is positioned as an object of desire, and being desired is the height of female achievement (god, look at how 'ugly' women are treated especially when they want to get recognition for something). Women will see sex as a process primarily centered on men wanting women, and will probably get off more on being wanted and desired than wanting and desiring. Women experience the world secondarily, at least when it comes to sexuality.

I heard once that sex itself is constructed with women on the receptive end: Men penetrate, we’re penetrated. That isn’t just biology, it’s culture. And it's true. The words we use, the concepts that arise and are constructed from these words.

The female body is understood to be largely sexually passive and receptive to sexually active and aggressive actions. So it is no surprise to me that many women eroticize sexual submission, and it's why I don't find it reflexively off-limits to roll my eyes at the insistence that rape fantasies and submission/degrading fantasies are natural and off=limits and just a ~ kink ~. No, I won't go into your bedrooms and try to stop you gals from masturbating to this stuff, and I don't think lesser of any woman with that (I have shameful domination fantasies that involve women submitting to me -- how can I judge?). But your clitboner is, yet again, not a sacred cow for me. Women are told men want to marry a virgin but fuck a whore, that men will pay more attention to you when you're younger and teetering over the edge of 'hot' and 'wanting to fuck' but not going OVER the line or else you'll be TOO hot and TOO slutty/whoreish ! And then of course we get into the 'asking for it' scenarios.


With the way sexuality just happens and is cultivated and shaped and formed, it's no wonder that asexual women must feel incredibly alienated. People are already obsessed with how ~damage~ affects women. We have the 'daddy issues' girl, we have a society that loves to talk about fucking 'whores' and 'strippers' but will gleefully admit to how 'screwed up' these women must be. Women that are non-heterosexual must be confused or lying, unless they are ugly, in which case they are truthful but it is just because no men will have them. And then we get to 'frigid' women, women who don't want that much sex or don't care for it, especially when they are older and tired from housework and mothering.

What exactly is the line between asexual and someone with a very low sex drive? In a sense, I believe it's similar to how I don't really feel there's the 'natural' homosexual and the 'natural' heterosexual. I don't think that many asexuals are pure 100% bona fide asexuals that have no desire whatsoever, but many probably have little sexual desire or are more autosexual. They probably get sexual arousal, but don't want other people to really take care of it, and don't see it as a means to engage in something they're not interested in, and deal with people's attitudes on the subject that they are not interested in. The entire culture of sex must be so off-putting to asexuals.

I admit, I'd know more what it's like for a woman to be asexual and the resulting stigma and obsession with 'fixing' her (or turning everything she says into something she doesn't mean) and 'finding' things with their confirmation biases, but I don't know much about the stigma a man would face. I'm trying to think.

Probably just being seen as less of a man. As you stated up there, the gay jokes. While women with low libidos seem to be a 'weird' thing, men with low libidos or who 'can't get it up' seem to be emasculated walking punchlines to many.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 03:20 pm UTC (link)
See, I enjoy this writing because it covers all the salient bases and compartmentalizes them within a neat rhetorical framework, while still giving legroom to conjoin it with the collective. It's haphazard, like mine, but yet ... not. It's roundabout.

Within heteronormative society, people -- even within the queer community -- are frequently attempting to conceptualize everything in terms of the gender binary. In other words, everyone often tries to make homosexuality as heterosexual as possible; proponents of this essentialist ideology, in addition, also have the vast majority of their straightness centered around these constructions. (This, for the record, ties into your explanation of how socially-constructed gayness is just as plausible as socially-constructed straightness.) Gay men are quite obviously "feminized": because in which other way could their desire to be fucked by men -- the homophobe's way of refining what their orientation must be rooted in -- be rationalized? Lesbian women, alternatively, are "masculinized" -- after all, what explains their desire to fuck women the way men should be fucking them?

Collective society encodes these attitudes within their lexicon, which always betrays them: How passive and active, dominant and submissive, penetrative and receptive, are often used to describe what is defined as inherent to basic, heterosexual relations. This, of course, transcends in how they approach non-sexual behaviors -- women are not only passive sexually, but psychologically. Men not only exert physical strength in the public labor sphere, and jackhammer the ground -- if I must be glib -- but within her.

This, by proxy, afflicts how attitudes are represented in the homosexual domestic sphere, including within childrearing -- division of household labor should, apparently, be determined by who subscribes to their respective complementary role of gender. Of course, observational data demonstrates the opposite of this transpiring within same-sex relationships, but that certainly doesn't stop the Ambiguous Heteronormative Collective (this is wry, of course) from believing otherwise. Similarly to everything else.

Which leads us back into how this cannot be divorced from sexuality. Bisexuals hardly merit a second glance -- after all, they're just confused, mired in ambiguity, and will eventually "settle down" into their respective norm: the normative heterosexual role, or the normative homosexual role. Gay men are Like The Women: fucking eachother the way only women should be fucked. Lesbian women, on the other hand, are fucking eachother when none of them should be doing the fucking in the first place! But if you may, allow us to manufacture you some dildos, "flesh"-colored and stippled with veins along the phallus.

(Another off-topic thing: Ever notice how in scientific descriptions of female animals with enlarged clitorises -- such as the spotted hyena -- it's described as a "pseudo-phallus"? I wonder, then, why penises aren't described as "pseudo-clitorises", given what they're constructed from. And also, on the male-normative skeleton, you can feminize it by adding some lipstick and a pink ribbon, Ms. Pacman style. Interesting paradoxes everpresent.)

Transpeople dismantle this category even further, throwing even secretly-essentialist feminists into a frenzy: far more emphasis is placed on Gender Identity Disorder rather than Body Dysphoria. And when you pepper asexuality into the concoction, it ties together nicely: Men should want to be fucking, and women should want to be fucked -- better still, they should at least desire fucking eachother within normative parameters, with gendered caveats applied. If they don't, the reasoning must also be rooted in sex; inadequate sex, abusive sex, stubborn puritanical sex-hating abstinence.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Unrelatedly, don't forget the uncanny fixation with the nebulous g-spot within straight relations. Stimulating a woman, after all, must be internal; it's natural, you see, far more natural than that "prostate" thing.
"What exactly is the line between asexual and someone with a very low sex drive? In a sense, I believe it's similar to how I don't really feel there's the 'natural' homosexual and the 'natural' heterosexual. I don't think that many asexuals are pure 100% bona fide asexuals that have no desire whatsoever, but many probably have little sexual desire or are more autosexual. They probably get sexual arousal, but don't want other people to really take care of it, and don't see it as a means to engage in something they're not interested in, and deal with people's attitudes on the subject that they are not interested in. The entire culture of sex must be so off-putting to asexuals."
You've got it covered perfectly here.
"I admit, I'd know more what it's like for a woman to be asexual and the resulting stigma and obsession with 'fixing' her (or turning everything she says into something she doesn't mean) and 'finding' things with their confirmation biases, but I don't know much about the stigma a man would face. I'm trying to think."
I've known more male asexuals than female ones, oddly. I wouldn't suggest their discrimination is lesser or worse, but it's certainly a unique genre of loathing. They face similar pathologising as women do, but face less permissibility -- after all, within patriarchal parameters, women are natural receptacles, are notoriously "harder to please", and more prone to frigidity. Men, on the other hand, are expected to be abundant in !TESTOSTERONE!, which is automatically affiliated with aggression and lust (and interestingly, this invokes to our past discussion about how violence and sex are entwined, to the point where the violence is invisible). So, men are more likely to be defaulted into "obviously homosexual" status, whereas women are more likely to be categorized in terms of abuse or dysfunction. But this is only anecdotal.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 11:23 am UTC (link)
After a while, I just gave up. I always felt dirty and violated after making myself engage in these things. I had decided that I was asexual.

What I wanted was different than most people. I wanted love and romance, but as I saw it. The kind of intimacy that makes you feel like you're in the womb again, that makes you feel safe and ~connected~ and happy, that's kind of ... pure. I basically wanted a Mother-Child bond, where neither of us was really the parent or the child, but switched off with this mutual care; a biological and psychological connection that couldn't be touched by anything else.

I guess that's the closest thing I can explain as how I feel when I am in love. It's pretty lame, and I can't talk about it with others because this creeeepy Freudian or Paternalistic spark lights up in their eye and they think it means I want to be taken care of.

In the end, it's not even really a Mother-Child relationship I'm looking for, but I have no other words to conceptualize what I want. It's definitely not what others want, really. I get annoyed that we've narrowed down and kept such strict definitions on these things, because I now have a lack of words for how to conceptualize and convey what exactly it is I want to others.

By the age of eighteen, I still had not fallen in love, nor had I had that 'crush' I was waiting for. I forced it, I told myself I had crushes on men that I had no real interest in. I didn't understand this invisible hand pushing me, pulling at my cheeks and making me smile at boys I had no interest in.

Since I hadn't loved a woman yet, I just felt asexual. To me, most people's sexuality was so ... fake. It was just so obviously crafted by what they saw around them. They used all of the same 'hot' words, they all seemed to think similar things were 'sexy', and I just didn't grasp it. People had suggested maybe I was gay, before they'd even accept that perhaps I was asexual. I would say I wasn't, because quite frankly I was not and still am not attracted to the 'ideal' woman that so many girls strive to be.

I do not like the pitch of their voice, their tone, the way they smile, the makeup they use, the way they act around men, the way they dumb themselves down, the way they compulsively dress as if they have no choice. I can't explain it, but even today, I get kind of sick and weirded out when I hear men or women talking about finding one another 'hot', sexually. It doesn't really have to do with any bullshit 'heterophobia', it's more like I just see it as this fabricated porn culture. I had the same thing with hearing gay men talk about 'cock' as if it was this entity of its own with some special allure. I hated hearing straight women talk about it, and straight men talk about 'pussy' as if attributing magical traits to it. I don't know, it's still hard to explain.

Most people thought I was anti-sexual, in general. That's not really it. It's not like I don't get aroused or turned on by others. I understand when other people do it, too.

At twenty, I finally fell in love with a girl. I started redefining how I looked at women after that, and was less misogynist towards them. I wasn't so ready to look down on other girls. This made me appreciate and even idealize love between women. Eventually, I discovered I was quite turned on by women.

I still am, but my problem is my turn-ons are domination ones. Involving me as the dominating party (with some fantasies not fitting in to this, they usually involve me being younger, though, when I'm submissive). I don't like this, because I can't stand mixing power and sex. I don't like the fantasies I have about women. They really disgust me and I don't see them as 'mine.' They are not me, they are something that's been thrust into my mind. That tells me there has to be an aggressor with a woman to make things 'hot', or else it's too 'tame' and not real.

(Reply to this)


[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 11:26 am UTC (link)
My relationship with sex is a constant mental struggle. I hate when I recognize things in my head that came to be from years of watching pornography. People say that I am hating what is 'natural', but ... it's not natural. We don't know what the natural state of human sex is. Thoughts are involved, attitudes, concepts, all of that that animals just usually don't have when they're fucking.

I hate that I cannot separate what is my own fantasy and what's just thrown in there out of nowhere. I am incredibly mistrusting of sex, and I do not like the carnal state it puts me in. I don't like that I think less during it, I don't like that I'm so malleable during it and in regards to it. It bothers me that I have typical straight male fantasies of women.

I like intimacy and sensuality because I feel myself during it. I don't feel myself during sex.

Basically uh, I really can't stand sex and the power dynamics that come with it. I don't like that people act so fucking stupid over it -- whether they are trying to repress it or are thinking what makes them wet or hard is so sacred that anyone criticizing it is somehow oppressive, the Sacred Cow of Horniness.

I feel like my relationships with women all fail because of my lack of interest in sex, because I think too much about it and don't just want to indulge whatever the fuck my partner wants because I want us to discuss it and think about WHY it turns her on, or why it turns me on. If they don't want that, I really don't mind them going out and screwing other people. I just won't want to be with them anymore.

I want sex. I want to have sex with girls. But when I have equivalent of lesbian harem fantasies and fantasize about things that disturb me, it gives me a lot of guilt. I hated that when I had a great girlfriend who had a very low sex drive, I had it in my mind that I didn't matter to her, that I wasn't attractive to her and that she wasn't even really gay, and basically drove her out of my life with insecurities. I blame the conceptions of sex that I grew up with, and that I, as an adult, still carry them out mentally and reinforce them.

Maybe I'm just mentally unstable!

Point is, I do always recall how people were willing to accept that perhaps I was a lesbian (of course, most men still don't get this) before even considering the asexual option. In a way, I do feel like I ebb and flow between homosexuality and asexuality, if only because while I have a very large romantic attraction to woman (which comes with erotic desire and arousal sometimes), I actually don't mind when I have 'dry spells' or when I am sexually inactive. I didn't have sex from the age of twenty one to twenty three and I can't recall ever needing to ~scratch the itch~

It also could be because most women, homo/bisexual or not, that I meet have really annoying ideas about sexuality. I BLAME THE PATRIARCHY.

END

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 12:09 pm UTC (link)
First: Thanks for elaborating on this. Seriously. And don't worry about loosely conceptualizing it; I understand where you're going, what you mean.

I suppose the first thing I want to address is the detailing of romance -- either mildly interlocked or completely divorced from -- sex. It's something that I've mentioned grappling with internally: how a rigid line drawn for orientation (with regards to being "homo-romantic") delves into an essentialistic territory that I'm rather disconcerted by. That being stated, I grok your descriptions of sensuality (romance defined within your own parameters) perfectly. I have no reservations about eroticizing traditionally un-erotic things, provided it contains that associated pureness. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in my post, the entwining of carnality and inanimate objects, for example, is usually done with a kitschy and rancid deviance ... and one that is quite deliberate. Obviously, you understand that this isn't rooted in puritannical naysaying, because I have no problems with eroticism that isn't forcefully paraded onto my "turf". When it's exerted in this vein, the issue of wondering "Yet how much of this is influenced by a series of snapshots, linguistic bias, an accumulation of outside exposure?" becomes a perpetual dark cloud that poisons the experiences.

Some might say "Well, then aren't you just describing a preference for alternative sexuality, then, and not simply asexuality?" -- which is why I mentioned that, given a different hypothetical world, things could possibly be quite different. At the world stands, both presently and historically, there is no way to embrace an alternative genre without embracing a reproduced facsimile of conventional intimacy; the collective baggage will always trickle within, along with snapshots of aggregates for flavor ... in other words, a different slew of terminologies and motions will differ, but the bottom line will not. Individualism with regards to sexuality is a prominent issue, in other words.
"Point is, I do always recall how people were willing to accept that perhaps I was a lesbian (of course, most men still don't get this) before even considering the asexual option. In a way, I do feel like I ebb and flow between homosexuality and asexuality, if only because while I have a very large romantic attraction to woman (which comes with erotic desire and arousal sometimes), I actually don't mind when I have 'dry spells' or when I am sexually inactive."
And this is the crux of my issue. All of this, here. What you mentioned about the Mother-Child-But-Not-Quite-That component (and subsequent creepy reactions from others) is also interesting; I've attempted detailing it within the framework of siblinghood before, which elicits paralleled disturbing reactions and incestuous conceptualizations from others -- which, is not at all What I Meant.

I suppose my first paragraph rattles off alarm bells of ... well, is this simply a semantic argument between sexuality and sensuality, and aren't these concepts perpetually fluid to begin with? Which is a seperate topic of interest of mine that I'm willing to bat around. But the immediate answer, for the time being, is "No."

I'm going to keep replying to you here & there; hope you don't mind.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 12:56 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind! I'll keep replying to you, too. I actually have a lot to say on the issue of redefining romance, and once I get more sleep I'll probably be more confident in my ability to articulate my thoughts. I just wanted to say I totally feel you on this: I've attempted detailing it within the framework of siblinghood before, which elicits paralleled disturbing reactions and incestuous conceptualizations from others -- which, is not at all What I Meant.

I've always talked about how I've had sister-like relationships with my girlfriends, and people just ... don't really understand what I mean, haha.

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[info]hungrymoon
2009-02-19 01:28 pm UTC (link)
FWIW, I completely understand your descriptions of love and romance. I feel the same way, I think.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 01:45 pm UTC (link)
:* We all need to have a big anti_fem lesbian(AND BISEXUAL!! ;D) love pile. In a chatroom sometime. : (

But yes, I've even stated to people who just think that my need to redefine romance means I only have ~confused friendship feelings~ for women and don't really want them (EXPLAIN MY LOVE OF CUNNILINGUS THEN, YOU GUYS) is that although it's not my preference or ideal, I'd be in a romantic friendship with a man if I found one that I felt that way for. Or however I choose to explain the certain type of romance that I want (but seem to never be able to have. WOE).

We really should talk more about this sometime. If only because I need to talk about it as much as possible to organize my thoughts. They are so horribly jumbled because most of them stay in my head :c

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 01:54 pm UTC (link)
Seriously, I miss chat. I'd adore getting together and clumsily free-writing about these issues. We should all plan it or something, y/y?

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 01:56 pm UTC (link)
Iawtc! My job hours have been cut so horribly that I'm pretty much free any time. My classes are mostly done on my laptop, anyway.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 01:38 pm UTC (link)
Yes, please discuss with me about redefining romance, after you've slept.

Another thing you said elsewhere:
"[W]hether they are trying to repress it or are thinking what makes them wet or hard is so sacred that anyone criticizing it is somehow oppressive, the Sacred Cow of Horniness.
Of course. This is one thing that got me into several explosive arguments with pro-kink types; I was demanded to define what differentiated prostitution from run-of-the-mill capitalistic exploitation ("What makes this so special?"), to which I had to reply "Well, what makes your kink so special and impervious with regards to how we discuss generalized exploitation under patriarchy?"

I also have to say: I'm using your personal stories as a platform to intellectualize other things, which were inspired by your thoughts. Hope this doesn't bother you. In fact, the relevant topic (intertwining of lesbianism and asexuality) is so compelling to me that it's almost like I want to get the endless caveats out of the way so I can analyze the symptomatic issue more thoroughly with you. So. We'll definitely expand on that in a bit, because I seriously need to.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-02-19 01:55 pm UTC (link)
I also have to say: I'm using your personal stories as a platform to intellectualize other things, which were inspired by your thoughts. Hope this doesn't bother you. In fact, the relevant topic (intertwining of lesbianism and asexuality) is so compelling to me that it's almost like I want to get the endless caveats out of the way so I can analyze the symptomatic issue more thoroughly with you. So. We'll definitely expand on that in a bit, because I seriously need to.

It doesn't bother me at all.

And I just thought of how Redefining Romance could probably, and IS probably, the title of a totally cheesy "how to fix your marriage" self-help book or something. I do love the concept of it, though.

And I'm going to reply to your comment below, and then finally get about three or four hours of sleep in (I have to go to a car lot at nine :[ ). I'll try to talk about my [pre-dating my identity with feminism] need to redefine romance and some of the ideas that I have, but that admittedly will be VERY tl;dr and I am not of the coherency to do such a thing at the moment.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 02:12 pm UTC (link)
TL;DR away. Ramble away.

I've been leaving the computer at times, and I haven't slept yet either, so my replies will be sporadically timed. I've got a fuckton of garbage to pontificate about, and it's cathartic in a way.

Good luck sleeping/the car situation. <3

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 01:23 pm UTC (link)
"By the age of eighteen, I still had not fallen in love, nor had I had that 'crush' I was waiting for. I forced it, I told myself I had crushes on men that I had no real interest in. I didn't understand this invisible hand pushing me, pulling at my cheeks and making me smile at boys I had no interest in."
Another interesting thing. Sex work has only enhanced this, and it's a difficult mannerism to shed, which is particularly frightening given how unconscious it's become at this point. I'm conditioned to, to put it bluntly, pretending to earnestly give a shit about what imbecilic men have to say. Now, this mannerism has fortunately carried over towards how I interact with women, but the difference resides in the fact that with women, it's actually meaningful. This attribute pre-dated my feminist learnings, for what it's worth.

Anyhow: So I'd have this similar habit of unconsciously flirting with men, while simultaneously talking shit to them. Horrible pot-stirring, really, which is also unconscious. I've heard it once described as "The Hot-and-Cold Coquette", which is really just a fancy way of describing abusive behavior. It's not a matter of noticing when I'm accommodating and then kicking myself -- as I mentioned, it's all primarily impulsive, and I often have to arduously reign myself in -- both from letting the invisible hands instigate a smile, and from being a douchebag.

What's also astounding is that women, generally, tend to interact with me as they would with men. I can't really explain this well -- rather, I'm relatively uncomfortable elaborating on this publicly, because I haven't figured out how to articulate this yet. I'll expand on this in IMs, later on. To simplify here: It's not the "pretending" component, but rather the component of "masculinizing" me, whatever that even means. And the difference is that you and I respond towards men differently than how these (usually heterosexual) women interact with men. That's all I can say, for now.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-02-19 04:16 pm UTC (link)
Um, yikes. The component of being isolated with no escape avenue is particularly chilling, nevermind the rest of their appalling displays of behavior. I completely understand how fucked up that is.

What's unfortunate about sex work is that "triggers" are so versatile, and you often forget which abusive or coercive incidents occurred while on the clock, or which took place in personal life. Everything blurs together incoherently. Sometimes, with more serious customers, they intersected: I recall dozens of paid creepy dinners with clients; receiving "personal" gifts (books on Egyptian civilization, sociology, Brazilian Portuguese -- one customer had inscribed a poem he had written for me in calligraphy, and framed it, which I should probably scan for you sometime.) I perpetually associate my gift-storage with being massaged, fondled, groped, their fingers climbing spiderlike down my skin.

Even the majority of my personal relationships -- particularly with male friendships -- were poisoned by this foreboding eclipse. Premonitions would occur, to which I'd be eventually proven correct in spotting their agendas, which would then be rationalized exasperatingly by them: "Yes, sue me for finding an attractive woman ... attractive." It was rather contemptuous to me, considering I prioritized intellectual companionship first and foremost, and I had wanted to believe they were fascinated by my cerebrum rather than my pulchritude. "Oh, but god, can't it be both?" For me ... No.

The notion of women being communal property is hardly a novel one. Similarly how Dworkin described the "piles of faceless bodies", I visualize piles of encounters, montages of invasive tactile sensations; distinguishing them is impossible. When I attempt to un-bias my perspective and "see the other side", a degree of self-blaming commences ... I, after all, was always brazenly outgoing, making even terrible people feel welcome in my presence, and then I could never get rid of them.

Aside from that, I cannot divorce the concept of "normal" advances with "unnerving" ones -- this shallow notion of "let's hook up so I can get to know you" was always fucking absurd to me. Regrettably, I also internalized notions of advancements and was rather aggressive with women myself. The concept of lesbianism is obviously not "I adore all women, and accept their advancements, every time" -- so I speculated if my being relatively un-threatened by women was rooted in the conception that women aren't supposed to be threatening. I also pondered if it was some degree of projected bi-phobia (swinger-phobia?); after all, most women who advanced on me were married or otherwise "taken", and it registered to me that I could be an afterthought to them rather than a goal.

And yes, we'll also chat on AIM.

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[info]meleth
2009-03-01 10:03 pm UTC (link)
OMG come join Jen and me in a homo-romantic lesbian commune?

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[info]meleth
2009-03-01 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Holy crap, I posted that in response to the wrong comment. Um, just sort of put it into one of the other comment threads.

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[info]demonista
2009-03-04 03:33 am UTC (link)
Hi, neverbeeneasy, I just asked jen if it be ok to link to this for the next carnival of radical feminists, and wanted to ask you too b/c you left such personal details here. if not, that's ok :)

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-03-05 02:30 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind at all :)

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-03-05 02:32 pm UTC (link)
Er, as long as Jen screens http://cruelbitch.livejournal.com/85439.html?thread=498879#t498879 this comment? Otherwise, nothing else I've said I mind sharing!

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-03-05 02:35 pm UTC (link)
Screened just 4 u. ;)

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[info]demonista
2009-03-04 03:31 am UTC (link)
hey jen, i'd like to link to this for the next carni of radfems. that ok? if it's with you, i'll also ask the commenters here who left personal details before i do.

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[info]cruelbitch
2009-03-04 03:06 pm UTC (link)
I'm personally alright if you link it. I would wait for [info]neverbeeneasy's response, though. Is it the comments you're interested in, or the original post, or both?

If she's reluctant to have personal knowledge shared, I could create an empty text file of OP and email it to you. Alternatively, I could copy&paste the post + comments (if that's what you want) and omit the usernames of people. Let me know.

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[info]neverbeeneasy
2009-03-17 04:25 am UTC (link)
I AM JUST GOING TO LINK YOU THINGS IN PM ♥ :* SINCE I COULDNT GET ON AIM LAST NIGHT

(Reply to this)


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